Announcer: Please note disclaimers at end of show. Welcome to Creating Wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven’t thought of before and a new slant on investing, fresh new approaches to America’s best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible.

Jason is a genuine self-made multimillionaire, who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He’s been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it. And now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman, with the Complete Solution for Real Estate Investors™.

Jason Hartman: Welcome to the Creating Wealth Show. This is Episode No. 172, and this is your humble host, Jason Hartman. Thank you for joining me today. We’ve got listeners in 26 countries around the world, and we’ve noticed the ratings and the downloads of the shows going up a lot lately, so we thank you for referring your friends and family.

We have a special show for you today. We have a very famous author, Swim with the Sharks Harvey Mackay, and he will be talking about his new book today, which is entitled, Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door. Aren’t all his books – they have such great titles.

We’ll get to my interview with Harvey in just a moment, but wanted to just make a couple of quick announcements and share a little poem with you today. First of all, we have our next Creating Wealth Bootcamp event coming up. Our date that we’re scheduling that for is July 31, and I just should let you know that we’re thinking about doing that event, although we have not confirmed the location, in Los Angeles near LAX Airport, or maybe even in Long Beach near the Long Beach Airport. We’re, of course, located right here in Orange County, near the Orange County Airport.

But we just thought maybe we’d try a different location and look at some different connections for our out-of-town visitors, who seem to be coming to the event more and more. If you have any feedback for us on that, talk with our investment counselors here. Shoot us an email through the website at And if you have any location suggestions, preferences, maybe you’ve wanted to come to one of our events, but the travel has stopped you because it’s more difficult than you want it to be, and we’d love to try to accommodate you, so any feedback would be appreciated.

Before we get to the interview with Harvey Mackay, I’m going to share a couple of properties with you. But before we do that, I want to share a little poem, and this is a very, very inspiring poem. It was written in 1977. Can you imagine that? This is a perspective from 33 years ago and it’s just interesting. I love to watch old movies and read sometimes those compilations of old front pages from the newspaper 50 years ago, 100 years ago, even 10 years ago because it’s just so interesting to get a perspective of what people were thinking about back then.

Well, this poem is entitled, “The Reluctant Investor’s Lament,” and it’s by Donald Weill. It was written in 1977, and it is so telling. When you look at the opportunities that we are faced with today as investors, the opportunities couldn’t be better because I think, unfortunately for most people, chances of extremely high inflation in the future couldn’t be worse. Now, some people say that inflation is going to hit us in 18 months. Some say in two years. Some say in four or five, maybe even not until six years. But we all know it is coming. It must come. There is simply no other choice ultimately.

And we also know that we’re going to see interest rates increasing, so our strategy again: Packaged Commodities Investing™, my little trademark term there. You tie up long-term commodities that have long-term universal need, universal value, and you tie them up with three and four-decade long fixed rate mortgages. So you don’t have to even see inflation. If you just see higher interest rates, that should have the effect of dramatically, dramatically increasing your income from your properties. So again, even though this poem is based around the concept of price increases, it’s not just about price increases. Remember, income property is a multi-dimensional asset class and all of us regular listeners, we know that. We get it. So this is just a really good perspective.

Then I’ll talk about some properties real quickly, and then Harvey Mackay, talking about getting your foot in the door. So here goes:

I hesitate to make a list

Of all the countless deals I’ve missed:

Bonanzas that were in my grip-

I watched them through my fingers slip.

The windfalls, which I should have bought,

Were lost because I over-thought.

I thought of this, I thought of that;

I could have sworn I smelled a rat.

And while I thought things over twice,

Another grabbed them at the price.

It seems I always hesitate,

Then make up my mind when it’s much too late.

A very cautious man am I,

And that is why I never buy.


“When tracts rose high on Sixth and Third,

The price asked I felt was absurd.

Those block-fronts, black and bleak with soot,

Were priced at just thirty bucks a foot!

I wouldn’t even make a bid,

But others did – Yes, other did!

When Tucson was cheap desert land

I could have had a heap of sand.

When Phoenix was the place to buy,

I thought the climate much to dry!

‘Invest in Dallas – that’s the spot!’

My sixth sense warned me I should not.

And that is why I never buy.


“How Nassau and how Suffolk grew!

North Jersey! Staten Island, too!

While other culled those sprawling farms

And welcomed deals with open arms –

A corner here, ten acres there,

Compounding values year by year,

I chose to think and as I thought,

They bought the deals I should have bought.

The golden chances I had then

Are lost and will not come again.

Today I cannot be enticed

For everything [in 1977] is so overpriced.

The deals of yesteryear are dead;

The market’s soft and so’s my head!

Last night I had a fearful dream;

I know I wakened with a scream.

Some Indians approached my bed

For trinkets on the barrelhead

(In dollar bills worth twenty-four,

Nothing less and nothing more)

They’d sell Manhattan Isle to me,

But the most I’d go was twenty-three.

The Redman scowled: “Not on a bet!”

And sold to Peter Minuit.

At times, a teardrop drowns my eye

For the deals I had but did not buy.

And now life’s saddest words I pen:

If only I’d invested then!”

Don’t be the reluctant investor. Do not let that be you. We all have regrets in life. I am sure we all have regrets of some sort. It’s the “coulda,” “shoulda,” “woulda.” You have to seize the opportunity, and I am telling you the opportunity is so great now in the midst of this global financial crisis. The population is increasing. The government is spending irresponsibly. Municipal bond funds are going to default like crazy. States, cities, counties will declare bankruptcy, and that means one thing: more fake fiat money will be printed and things will be become meaningful and money – well, I shouldn’t say money. I should say currency, namely dollar bills, will become more and more worthless. Our debt is denominated in those dollar bills.

Think about the opportunity to use someone else’s money, the bank’s money, to stock up on things, things that have universal need. Things matter. People say money isn’t important. Well, I don’t know about that. That’s debatable. But I will say that things are far more important than money. Things really do matter, and we say use other people’s money to buy lots of things, things that everybody needs. Get in control of the resources that have universal need. That is the road to wealth.

Let me talk to you about a couple of these resources right here. Here’s a property in the Greater Dallas area, three-bedroom, two-bath, built in 2006. It’s just four years old, almost 2,000 square feet. You can buy this property for a total cash out-go, closing costs and everything, for just over $44,000.00. It’s $77.00 per square foot. The projected rent is $1450.00 per month. The cash flow is $144.00 per month based on that projection, and the return on investment is projected at 21 percent annually.

What if it doesn’t work out so well? What if you only get half of that? Well, that means you would earn 10.5 percent annually. You know what? That’s going to be about ten times better than you’ll earn in any bank right now, and it’s probably a heck of a lot better than you’re going to earn in any mutual fund. I know that.

Here’s another one. This we’ve talked about before. These are our little duplexes that we have in St. Robert, Missouri, a big military town. Three-bedroom, two-bath units, two of them brand spanking new, new with warranty. And even the not-new homes, they all come with warranties, all the stuff we recommend. Twenty-six hundred forty square feet; $183,000.00, $69.00 per square foot. It only takes $15,000.00 total cash invested.

Now, on these, because they’re brand new and we have a unique financing opportunity, you do initially have to deposit in a secured CD $36,000.00, but you get a bunch of that back at closing. So ultimately, you’re only putting in just over $15,000.00. Cash flow is projected at $253.00 per month. That’s over $3,000.00 per year in positive cash flow. Return on investment is projected at 58 percent. Did you hear that? Fifty-eight percent. It only has to go one-tenth as well as projected and you’re still going to beat the bank, and you’re probably going to beat the heck out of the stock market.

Here’s another one in Indianapolis, income property bond country; 2,100 square feet, $74,000.00, $35,000.00 in change total cash in. Only $35.00 per square foot. I bet it would cost you double to build that house today. This is a 2007 house, only three years old. Again, the ones that aren’t new, they’re all bank foreclosures pretty much. That’s pretty much all we’re dealing in now. Positive cash flow projected at $413.00 per month. That’s almost $5,000.00 per year in positive cash flow. Return on investment projected at 24 percent annually, cash-on-cash return, 14 percent cap rate, 12.1 percent. Try beating that.

Let’s go back to the Big D, Dallas, Texas: four-bedroom, two-bath, 2003. I’m looking at the picture. This is a really, really nice looking property; 2,370 square feet, $135,000.00, $40,000.00 total cash in; $57.00 per foot, $190.00 per month projected positive cash flow, and $2,300.00 per year positive cash flow projection. Total ROI, we’re projecting 22 percent annually. Folks, do not be the reluctant investor. Do not be the one who says, “Now life’s saddest words I pen – If only I’d invested then.”

Changing the subject here, it’s my pleasure to interview Harvey Mackay just recently, and let’s hear that interview now. Harvey Mackay is a very famous author. Now, this interview should be interesting to you for multiple reasons really. The book, his new book, is really about getting a job, and it’s entitled, Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door; Unique Job Secrets that No One Else Will Tell You.

However, we talk about his other books. If you are in sales – listen; everybody’s in sales – if you are interested in ever being an author, a publisher, a speaker, Harvey Mackay, you can learn a lot from this guy because he is an incredible, incredible success story. He started out as an envelope salesman and, through just sheer networking – like, if you want to learn how to network, Harvey Mackay is your guy. You’ll really like this interview. So without further ado, let’s just go to the interview, and we will play that interview in just less than 60 seconds. Be right back with Harvey Mackay.

Announcer: Want to know what you’ve missed in the Creating Wealth series? Well, here’s your opportunity with Jason’s five-book set. That’s shows 1 – 100 through digital download. You save $288.00 by getting this five-book set. Learn all of the advanced strategies for wealth creation. For more details, go to

Interview with Harvey Mackay

Jason Hartman: It’s my great pleasure to welcome Harvey Mackay to the show. You certainly know of him. He’s the man with all of those great book titles, first and foremost many years ago was How to Swim with the Sharks without Being Eaten Alive. Many other bestsellers in between. His latest book is Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door, and he sold over 10 million books, translated into 42 languages, distributed in 80 countries. I have enjoyed his nationally syndicated column for many, many years now. Harvey, it’s great to be talking with you.

Harvey Mackay: Jason, nice to be with you. I’ve been avidly looking forward to this interview.

Jason Hartman: Well, good. Tell us about your most recent book, if you would. It is so timely and I hear that it just hit No. 4 on the New York Times Bestseller List. Congratulations.

Harvey Mackay: Well, I’m very proud of that. I found that out about 24 hours ago, this coming Sunday. So kind of proud, along with USA Today and Wall Street Journal Bestseller. You work on a book for two years and you like to get results after all that effort, so I’m a very happy camper. The book has a little unique feature in it. On the back of the book, if everyone turns it over, if they eventually had a book, it would say the following: Do not read this book. Study it, underline it, highlight it, use Post-It notes, and if after six months you don’t have a job, I personally – and I sign it right there on the back cover – will give you your money back.

People, Jason, have asked me, and I’ve been out on the road now – I have 23 cities left; seven down and 23 to go, so I’ve done numerous radio and television, maybe over 50 – 60 interviews already – everyone asks me, “How can you make a claim like that?” Well, my answer is I’ve been doing this for 45 years, calling from Minneapolis, the company I founded right here, Mackay-Mitchell Envelope Company. I’ve had about 500 people through my front door in the last 40 – 45 years. They have gotten exactly what they wanted.

When I wrote Swim with the Sharks, I had on the back page “money back guarantee if you don’t like this book.” Now, five million copies of Sharks were sold. Eighteen people, Jason – 18 people asked for their money back. Seven of them were my best friends.

Jason Hartman: Well, you know what? No prophet is ever revered in his own circles.

Harvey Mackay: So anyway, if I could set the stage for you – and this is not a typo. Our listeners have to know these are real numbers, and I know this goes to many, many, many countries. I’ve had an opportunity to speak in about 80 different countries, so I’m sure virtually every country that is listening, person listening from a different country, I think the concepts don’t change. The philosophies don’t change. Nothing has changed in the last 100 years or the next 100 years as far as being successful.

Now, how we get our information and everything, that’s a whole different, new world. But here are the settings of the table, if I may. This very moment – and this is not a typo; this is Federal Bureau Labor statistics – there are 14.8 million Americans looking for work, unemployed, down-sized, restructured, right-sized, mergers, acquisitions, consolidations, 14.8 million people; 6.3 million of the 14.8 have been looking for seven months or more. That is just unrealistic. That number was only a million and a half five years ago. The average college graduate this coming June, he or she will have 10 – 14 different job changes in his or her career. And now get this – 3 – 5 different career changes; 10 – 14 job changes by age 38. I’ll repeat that. By age 38, 10 – 14 changes, 3 – 5 different career changes in their entire career.

So you see it’s a perpetual job search that we’re talking about out there.

Jason Hartman: Yeah, times have definitely changed. Nobody’s going to work for the same company for 40 years and get a gold watch anymore, are they?

Harvey Mackay: That’s correct. My father was a writer, head of the Associate Press here in St. Paul/Minneapolis for 40 years. He did get the gold watch, so that’s right. Not anymore. So you have to prepare to win. You have to do your homework. I have 300 pages, 69,000 words that give a lot of and review a lot of secrets how to be successful and make sure you’re not one of those 14.8 unemployed.

Jason Hartman: I love some of the stuff you cover in the book and it’s so timely again, with so many people looking for positions and wanting to use your network. And by the way, Harvey, I have to tell you. One of my other very favorite book titles of yours that I have talked about in many speeches I’ve given –

Harvey Mackay: Can I take a guess?

Jason Hartman: Sure, go.

Harvey Mackay: I’m just going to guess. Dig Your Well before You’re Thirsty?

Jason Hartman: You got it. I love that title. And that’s really what – that applies to networking and job searching and so many opportunities in life, doesn’t it?

Harvey Mackay: It’s in 200 universities, Dig Your Well before You’re Thirsty, and guess what? I don’t sell anything on my website. This is for all the listeners around the world. They will receive, just by listening this very minute, they can receive a $12.95 book. It’s the Harvey Mackay Rolodex Network Builder, which summarizes the Dig Your Well before You’re Thirsty, no charge; free. They can download it. I sell nothing on my website. They can get that book free. They can get all kinds of reports free. They can get a 66-question customer profile. There are just all kinds of gifts on there. They can do all of those things at no charge, so yes, thank you for mentioning that book, and that’s a very good opportunity for all of our listeners to go to that website and get that free book, which will help them in not only getting a job, but it will help them climb the ladder the rest of their life.

What I wrote here, Jason, is an A – Z career resource book. This is not a book just for someone looking for jobs. This is for entrepreneurs. This is for CEOs, managers, people who hire, who fire, negotiations; it’s all in there, and they’ll find out by hitting my website.

Jason Hartman: I remember a long time ago, learning about the Mackay 66, as you call it, and Harvey, tell us how it relates to job seekers.

Harvey Mackay: You actually must have memorized the book because that’s the No. 1 key ingredient. The definition of a secret is when one person knows, and there are maybe over a hundred secrets and good ideas in the book. But this is No. 1. You just nailed it, Jason. You nailed it.

And here’s what it is. The Mackay 66 Question Customer Profile I came up with at age 21, I was an envelope salesman working for a huge company, and I decided that every company I called – I was, of course, a purchasing agent; they’re called purchasing managers today – there were 300 buyers I was calling on. I decided that I wanted to humanize my selling strategy at age 21, so I came up with these 66 questions that I would love to know about the customers that I call on.

I want to know about their hobbies, their recreation, if they happen to be married, anything about their children, their previous jobs, where they take their vacations, political preference, odd jobs they’ve had before, spouses’ interests, children’s interests. These are all the things that I wanted to know. Therefore, I put that in Swim with the Sharks, and that’s one of the reasons why I guess it went through the roof.

But now, let’s apply this and I call that humanize your selling strategy. Incidentally, in that little $12.95 book I just talked about that everyone gets free that’s listening to this program, that can download within seconds, there are 20 pages in the 112 page little booklet there, 20 pages of my speech that I delivered to the MBA program at Harvard, MBA students. It’s called, of course, “Humanize Your Job Search,” or “Humanize Your Selling Strategy.”

So now let’s get back to your question. If you’re going for a job, a lot of people will Google the company, which is wonderful; you have to do that. But now there’s a human being that’s hiring you. People buy from other people and people hire other people because of chemistry, because of likeability, because of people skills. You have to level the playing field.

So we teach our salespeople to read the desk, to read the walls, to read the reception area when you walk in, to keep gathering information about your customers, to stay close to them, and then again, you humanize it. That’s how you get your foot in the door. That’s how you get the business. Example:  Let’s say, Jason, you’re going to interview me and for some reason or other, you don’t grant me an interview. I’ve been calling. I’ve been calling your assistant, your H.R. director of XYZ Company, and I can’t get my foot in the door.

Well, if I go to the invisible web, which is, again, in the book, 10 pages on the invisible web, which gives you search engines and databases. Virtually 99 percent of all the listeners have never heard it before. I can find out some of your interests. I can find out your golf scores. I can find out what your golf handicap is. I could find out whom you contribute to believe it or not. And let’s just say that I find out that you’re with the Salvation Army as a volunteer. You’re on the board of directors. Or the United Way, whatever. What I’ll do is I’ll write you a little letter and say, “Dear Jason, I’ve been trying to get an appointment with you to no avail. Just wanted to let you know I know you’re involved with United Way, Salvation Army, whatever. I’d be happy to volunteer 25 hours to that organization if you’ll give me an interview.”

Jason Hartman: Right. What a unique way to get your foot in the door.

Harvey Mackay: Won’t you stand up and listen a little bit to a creative candidate?

Jason Hartman: Absolutely, very creative. And you figure if that candidate is so creative in getting in the door, they’re going to be creative in their position with your company. They’re going to think out of the box. They’re going to go the extra mile and really bring revenue to your company.

Harvey Mackay: You want to be a differentiator in all aspects, whether you’re looking for work, or anyone listening right now that has a job already. Differentiator, outside of the box. All the studies known to mankind prove the following by theory, and it’s in practice, too. There is no – zero, zip, none – no correlation between I.Q. and creativity. I’ve studied it for 40 years. Every listener on this program right now can become way more creative than they ever thought they could, and so that’s what they have to study. That’s what they have to learn; that’s what they have to apply. I’ve always said in Swim with the Sharks and a few of my books, “Knowledge does not become power until it’s used.”

I want to repeat that. “Knowledge does not become power until it’s used. Ideas without action are worthless, so therefore, you have to take that self-help book, and you have to take from those pages all the creative juices that you’re going to learn about, and you have to take them to the marketplace.

Jason Hartman: Absolutely. Very good point. Let’s talk a little bit about the job search, and I do want to leave some time to go beyond that to some of your prior work about salesmanship, management, leadership, etc. But what are two or three questions every candidate should be prepared to answer on an interview?

Harvey Mackay: In the back of the book, there are 20 questions by a guy by the name of Einstein. He’s no longer living. He’s one of the top gurus in the world as far as interviewing, hiring, keeping winners. So there are 20 of his questions, and I’ve worked with them, studied at his feet for about the better part of 25 years, and some of them you have to be prepared for. If you’re a manager applying for a job, they’ll ask you or you have to be prepared for, “Whom did you hire in the last couple years at your last job? Did you grow them with the company? Where are they right now?”

Well, tough question. Prioritize your weaknesses. Well, you have to think about that for a minute. You can turn that into a plus. If you happen to be a perfectionist or a workaholic, you can – now, you have to tell the truth; you can’t tell half the truth. You have to tell the whole truth. You have to be authentic. But you can just say, if you happen to be a workaholic or a perfectionist, you start listing some of the assets that some human resource people want to hear about. And then, therefore, you’ve taken the negative into a plus.

They’re going to ask you where you want to be in three years. Whatever you do, don’t say I want your job. Some people actually answer that question to show aggressiveness, “I’d like to have your job.” That’s like saying, “Officer, I didn’t know I was speeding.” That’s a no-no.

Jason Hartman: That could be a little intimidating for sure.

Harvey Mackay: And you also will be asked again what your plans are, dreams are. You’ll be asked about teamwork. Teamwork is the No. 1 buzzword in all of the work society today all over the world. It’s teamwork. It’s not “I, I, I, I.” Those are really some tough questions. Can you lie, and if so, under what circumstances? You have to think about that one for a minute or two.

And now, here, Jason, we want to do 180 degree turn. So now you’re prepared. I was a lucky guy. I was the Miss America judge a few years back, and some of those women are prepared from the day they’re born to answer the toughest questions. And so what you have to understand is everybody’s prepared to be asked the tough questions, but then you want to ask some questions at the end of the interview. A lot of H.R. people will say, “Do you have any questions?” and you can’t say, “Well, no.” You have to be thinking about that. In other words, for example, tell me about the person I’m replacing. Tell me about my boss. Why did that person leave? Tell me about your values. There are all different kinds of real tough questions that you can be prepared for.

And now, here’s the real key. When you walk out of the interview, don’t start your car. Just get in your car and debrief yourself. Tail-ink is better than the most retentive memory. What does that mean? Write it down. We forget 50 percent of what we hear in four hours, and so therefore, you debrief yourself. What other new people did I meet? Did I pronounce the names right? Where did I blow it? What questions should I have asked? What questions didn’t I answer according to my standards? All these different mistakes that might have been made, in case I get invited back a second time. See how creative that is just to be able to have that strategy?

I’ve always said – and again, I go back to Swim with the Sharks. Practice makes perfect. That’s not true. You have to add one word. Perfect practice makes perfect.

Jason Hartman: Yeah, very good point.

Harvey Mackay: So you must practice the right concepts. There are just too many people out there practicing the wrong concepts. Creativity, back to your question on creativity for a moment, I can tell you 99.9 percent of the people out there looking among the 14.8 million do not do a DVD of themselves. And if you can’t get an interview, that’s a good thing just to send your three-minute DVD. If you already got the interview through a career coach, through an industrial psychologist, anything, whoever’s helping you, then you leave the DVD with them. That three-minute DVD can knock their socks off because you become a differentiator all of a sudden.

Jason Hartman: And I assume that’s what you mean by expose yourself in the privacy of your own home, right?

Harvey Mackay: Well, that’s probably – you memorized the book. That’s my favorite chapter for the following reason. Expose yourself in the privacy of your own home. What do I mean by that? As soon as you get terminated, immediately you should have already, hopefully, a kitchen cabinet. That’s two or three or four friends, who really care about you. You go out and get a video camera. You get to your living room. Have those two, three, four friends video you in a mock interview on some real tough questions over and over and over. Really drill you.

Now they can critique your performance. Now you’re better prepared for the next interview, over and over and over again. Can you imagine, Jason, if you and I were lawyers and we had to give a summation to the jury after a two-week difficult trial, and we wouldn’t have practiced our summation to the jury, our speech, in front of our partners or somebody so they could critique our performance? No, I can tell you 98 percent of the people don’t do that when they go out looking for a job. It’s just another secret among the 100 Secrets in the book itself, and it’s very, very practical.

All of a sudden, when you’ve done that, you’ve had those mock interviews, guess what? The butterflies go away. The nervousness goes away. Your poise comes back. You have confidence. You roll in there. You’ve done it before. Doesn’t that make good sense?

Jason Hartman: Oh, it absolutely makes good sense. I’d say preparation and practice, and then also just rehearsing it in one’s mind, sort of future playing what the scene will be like and how it will work, and really kind of future pacing it, really, is the way it works.

Harvey Mackay: It’s nice role playing. Another secret in the book, which probably would be in the first three or four, is the moment you get downsized. This should be everybody again, every listener who has a job. They should be doing this right now anyway, tomorrow morning. They should go with their passion. They should be thinking about the best charity in town that they like, that they’re passionate about, a non-profit organization, and they should volunteer.

Now why do I say that? Well, let’s just say that you’re out of work. Now you immediately go with, again, the United Way, Salvation Army, whatever is close to your heart. What happens? Charities, today, because of the economic tsunami that’s happened in the last 18 months in the world – not in the U.S.; in the whole world – charities have their back to the wall. They have three problems. No. 1, money. No. 2, money, and No. 3, money.

So what does that mean? That means you have to go out and ring doorbells. It means you have to go knock on doors. You have to call on businesses. That means you have to help them raise money. It means you have to make presentations. It means that you might have a few people reporting to you after you get involved with that organization.

Now what does that equate to? It means you become a better sales person. You become a better speaker, a better leader, a better communicator, and on top of it, you’re networking at the same time. You’re back in circulation, working with this organization, helping them raise money. I mean these are things that a lot of people don’t think about, but believe me, after doing this again for 40 years and having those 500 people through my front door here, I can tell you they get exactly what they want ultimately.

Jason Hartman: Let me take a brief pause. We’ll be back in just a minute.

Announcer: What’s great about the shows you’ll find on is that if you want to learn how to finance your next big real estate deal, there is a show for that. If you want to learn more about food storage and the best way to keep those onions from smelling up everything else, there’s a show for that. If you honestly want to know more about business ethics, there’s a show for that. And if you just want to get away from it all and need to know something about world travel, there’s even a show for that. Yep, there’s a show for just about anything, only from Jason Hartman at the, or type Jason Hartman in the iTunes Store.

Jason Hartman: Harvey, it can be very discouraging staying motivated during a job search, handling rejection. What is your advice on that?

Harvey Mackay: Well, that’s probably the key word in the whole book out of 79,000 words, the word “rejection.” It’s very difficult. Every person, again, alive has to know the following. Here’s my philosophy. I’ve never yet met a successful person in his or her entire life who hasn’t had to overcome either a little or a lot of adversity in their lives. So No. 1, you have to know it is coming. That’s No. 1.

There’s incidentally a chapter in the book. This is a roundabout answer, but it’s so very, very important because you’ve really hit the cornerstone of the whole book and whether people fail or whether people succeed, and that is there’s a little story there, a fable, about the devil. He had some tools and he put them out on the table there, and what were those tools? They were the tools of greed and lying and every negative that you could think of out there.

And also, though, they look very harmless, but they were there – he had a tool of discouragement, and that was old and worn out. That was priced far above all the other tools that he was going through. And so, boom; what does that mean? Well, he could easily come up with discouragement. Once someone is discouraged, he could then prey on those people with all of his other greed and larceny and lying and all those evils. Got it?

So when you’re discouraged, you’re down. Now, you have to know again, that failure does not have to be permanent. It’s only temporary. Your attitude determines your altitude.

So No. 2, when you lose that job, when you lose that sale – we’re talking success here, too – when you lose that, you can’t take it personally. You have to just pick yourself up off the mat and bounce back. My last book was We Got Fired; It’s the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Us. On the cover I put 12 famous people that have been fired. Lou Holtz was one of them, Notre Dame coach for 11 years, in the Hall of Fame, one of the greatest football coaches that ever lived. I’m lucky. He’s my best friend. We’re joined at the hip. He’s basically my brother.

And in there, he tells the story about how he got fired at the University of Arkansas. Very successful; coach, the former coach, and his athletic director at the time, Frank Broyles, fired Lou Holtz. He goes home. He tells his wife Beth he’s going to sue the school, sue Broyles. He’s upset. His wife talks him out of it. She’s brilliant and bright and smart. He goes back hat-in-hand, apologizes.

Now, let’s look at the results. He winds up getting the University of Notre Dame football job. He stays there 11 years. Frank Broyles got him the job. Couldn’t have gotten it without that. In other words, Holtz says that his quote – like to take credit for it – but if you’re going to burn your bridges, you better be a damn good swimmer. So you see you have to learn something from that rejection that we’re talking about here. You have to learn something from the “no” that you got when you didn’t get the job. That’s how you overcome rejection, and then that kitchen cabinet, the two or three or four friends, the really close friends, who care about you, they can help you also buttress that rejection.

Jason Hartman: And understand that things may well be a blessing in disguise, and they usually are.

Harvey Mackay: Oh, long term, if you look at the Depression, in 1929 – 1936, you should see a list – I could give you a list of 50 companies, great companies that were founded during those tough years. I mean just Boeing and Hewlett Packard, United Technologies – I could go on and on and on. It’s incredible the companies that were founded, and likewise, the individual entrepreneurs that were born. Find something you love to do and you’ll never have to work a day in your life.

Jason Hartman: That’s what I say.

Harvey Mackay: That’s what these listeners have to feel out there is that when you get that, necessity is the mother of invention, and when you’re thrown out there in the street, a lot of wonderful things can happen to you. And again, We Got Fired; It’s the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Us, I can’t begin to tell you how many hundreds and thousands of people that I came across that said it was the best thing that ever happened to them long term. Not short term.

Jason Hartman: Right, and you have to be able to see that long term vision of the opportunities that will open because one door has been closed. Necessity is the mother of invention, no question about it. Let’s kind of switch gears if we can to some of your older work. You’re a fantastic sales and management trainer, leadership trainer. What would be some of your tips from some of your older work, like Swimming with the Sharks, your most famous book, the one you’re known for. And by the way, I have to ask you. You got the largest advance in publishing history when you wrote that book, and it just launched you into a life of fame as an author. How do you think of these titles? I love your book titles. They’re fantastic.

Harvey Mackay: Well, again, I practice the right concepts and then I can tell you why I got that advance. I can tell you the secret, which, again, is going to go back to that $12.95 free book that everybody can download because it’s all in there. But the titles, what I do is I go out and get 6 – 10 people, and I have coaches. I have a skiing coach, a golf coach. I have a speech coach, believe it or not. I use coaches for everything because whatever my God given potential is, whatever my God given talent is, then I can’t get any better. Once I’ve had proper instruction, once I focus on my goal – and a goal is a dream with a deadline; repeat that. A goal is a dream with a deadline – once I focus on that, then I can accomplish that.

So those titles all come up with 8 – 10 people sitting around for four hours, and then we have a moderator there. It happens to be a woman and she’s been with me – she’s my humor coach, as well as my creative coach. And we sit around and we watch TV shows that have something to do with what I’m writing, clips. We read magazines, we read newspapers. She’s done all her homework. And then everybody just blurts it out. And on Swim with the Sharks, I came up with over 500 book titles pasted on the wall in six hours, a six-hour creative session; 500.

And then everybody gets a gold star, and they go up there and they say which title do you like, and that’s what came out of Swim with the Sharks. It happened to be my title and they all liked that one, so that one beat all the other titles.

Now, how did I get that advance? It’s real simple. I wanted to have a lot of books printed. Just a little background on publishing and that is as follows. If you’re an unknown, first-time author, and you want to get published, business books, there are 11,000 business books to be published this year, 2010, 11,000. They’ll print if you’re unknown, never heard of, 10,000 hard cover books. That’s very difficult to get started because there are 5,000 bookstores in the U.S. That’s two books a store. And of course, back then, they didn’t have back when I wrote Swim with the Sharks.

So I rolled into a summit meeting with the CEO, President, VP of National Sales, three of them, and I looked at them after 45 minutes because it was our summit publishing meeting, whether they were going to go with me or not. I said, “I’d like you to seriously consider publishing 100,000 hard cover copies of Swim with the Sharks. We were on the 37th floor. They told me to jump. “Thank you very much, Mr. Mackay. Obviously, we’re not going to get together.” “But who are you,” they screamed at me, “to come in here and ask for a 100,000?”

When I came into the boardroom, I carried in two humongous briefcases. And then I put them up on the conference board table. I took out two huge Rolodex files, 6,500 names since my father got a hold of me at age 18. My father told me every person I meet, as long as I live, goes in the Rolodex file. A little bit on the bottom on the back of the card and then find a creative underlying, creative way to keep in touch. And I took those out and I started going through them; General Mills, 14,000 employees. We do business with them. Maybe they’ll read the book, pass it along. 3M, maybe they’ll read the book, pass it along. General Electric, Carlson Companies, Cargill.

And then I said we do business in ten countries at the time. Today, it’s closer to 18 – 20 now. I said here’s Spain, here’s France, here’s Germany, here’s Paco Golatus, 2,000 employees in Spain. Maybe they’ll read the book. Maybe it will be an international bestseller. Boom. Three meetings later, they published 100,000 hardcover books, Swim with the Sharks. And that story is told in Dig Your Well before You’re Thirsty.

Jason Hartman: Sure, and that’s what you did. You dug your well before you were thirsty, and you showed the publisher you had a huge platform, so they were interested right away in showing that leap of faith with you because they saw that you had the distribution channels.

Harvey Mackay: I have a network and there’s no question. Again, my father taught me it and I have 12,800 names in my computer now. It used to be in my Rolodex. Most people know about 200 people, Jason, and if you multiplied – it’s two men times two – I have 4.8 or 10.8 million contacts. And so that’s why every person you meet you should have a deep down burning desire to find out what makes them tick. And when you extend your hand, and this my father taught me again – I’ve been doing it since age 18 – when you extend your hand and you introduce yourself to someone, as long as you live, assuming you want to be happy and successful, right to your brain bank you should say to yourself, “What can I do for that person?”

And expect nothing in return. And if you do that all of your life – my father never made $10,000.00 as head of the Associated Press here in the Twin Cities, St. Paul/Minneapolis, for 40 years. Never made $10,000.00. It was his goal. He got to $9,000.00, but never to $10,000.00. But he lived like a millionaire. Why? He had friends. He had contacts. He was happy; he was successful. So he taught me that and I guess that’s what I’ve been doing since I wrote Swim with the Sharks and my other five books, doing the same thing.

Jason Hartman: Well, just give us some of the main thoughts, if you would, from Swim with the Sharks.

Harvey Mackay: Sure. Well, we talk about the 66 Question Customer Profile.

Jason Hartman: The Mackay 66.

Harvey Mackay: And again, I have to go back to that little book because all of our listeners can get all this free. They don’t have to buy the book. They don’t have to buy the book that we’re talking about here. But they can get it free, again, in that little $12.95 Harvey Mackay Rolodex Network Builder. It’ll explain to them the 66 Question Customer Profile. On the website, they get free the 66 Questions. In that $12.95 book, it explains how to use the 66, so that’s the cornerstone of all my success.

But then over and above that, it’s the networking, which, of course, you have to go out, you have to be out there. And that’s why I’m a volunteer. That’s why one-fourth of my life is volunteerism. I wouldn’t be talking to you if my father didn’t push me over the cliff at age 21 when I graduated from the University of Minnesota. I was kind of cocky. I was a history major, wanted to start at the top and work up, and again, thought I knew it all. But he said one-fourth of your life is going to be volunteerism. And so I went out and I became the state cancer chairman after three years of working with the American Cancer Society, and then I became a good speaker and a good planner and organizer.

So those are the things you have to do. You have to network. You have to understand negotiations. I’m a firm believer in reading the greatest books that have ever been printed, ever, and then again, you can’t read them once. I still have How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I’ve read the book 100 times.

Jason Hartman: That’s a classic. I read that book when I was 17 years old. It’s great.

Harvey Mackay: There’s a fellow by the name of Warren Bennis, who was at USC, University of Southern California, who gave me an endorsement and said that I’m the closest thing to him. And of course, maybe that’s because I read the book 100 times. And then I put my own examples in a lot of his philosophy and developed my own. The Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. So self-help books really mean something out there. You don’t go to school once for a lifetime. You’re in school all of your life, and so I believe in audio tape libraries, which are now today CD libraries. So every time I get in my car – and I do a lot of driving – if you drive 10,000 miles a year and you live average life expectancy – American female, 78 years of age; American male, 73 years of age – just drive 10,000 miles a year, live those number of years, you’ll spend three years in your automobile. Why not turn your automobile into a university?

Jason Hartman: That’s what Denis Waitley said when I discovered him at age 17. He should your car should be a rolling university.

Harvey Mackay: Yes, and I was just with Denis Waitley last week and he’s fabulous. He’s just a brilliant individual and a brilliant human being, and I’ve had a nice 25-year relationship with him. He’s even helping me sell this book, Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door.

So anyway, back to Sharks and back to your question, what it is is it’s networking, it’s contacts, what you can do for someone else. It’s work ethic. It’s values, and then I can tell you, I’ve interviewed 1,000 people – we have 600 people on the payroll here at Minneapolis, and again, we make 25 million envelopes every day. That means you have to sell, Jason, 25 million envelopes every day. And in this office where I’m calling from right now, I had a 1,000 people here, one at a time. I’m looking for one thing when they walk in, a five-letter word. Most important word almost in the English language, in all relationships, in life: TRUST.

When a person walks in here, if I can trust them because they’re representing me and my brand and my name and my reputation, then I look for all the other skills. Right at the top of the list happens to be a sense of humor. After I find trust in someone, I’m looking for their sense of humor. And then, can you believe it or not, I start looking for the skills because we want camaraderie, we want teamwork. There is no “I” in team. These are all the things that we look for in order to be successful, and I can just tell you they do work for me.

Jason Hartman: Definitely good advice. Any thoughts from your other books? We have to wrap up here pretty soon, Harvey, but you have such a huge body of work. I mean nationally syndicated column for so many years. Any of the general success tips, sales tips.

Harvey Mackay: Well, surely. There’s a general philosophy: Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt, subtitled – that’s my second book after Swim with the SharksDo What You Love, Love What You Do, and Deliver More Than You Promise. Very important to be successful out there after trust is deliver more than you promise, but that’s a very entrepreneurial book as to how to become an entrepreneur. And what you have to do, if you ask me again, to be a successful entrepreneur, what do you need, well, you need mentors. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto. And that’s for the American audience.

But you can’t do it all by yourself, and so you need that kitchen cabinet as soon as you get out of school, as soon as you’re out there having a job, you get those two, three, four friends. And mentors are different than a kitchen cabinet. Mentors change over a period of a lifetime, but everybody studies at the feet of someone. I studied at the feet of all kinds of famous authors and personalities and business people, and that’s what every listener should do. Now, they don’t have to be famous. They can just be anybody that’s successful, and once you get two, three, four different opinions, then boom. Again, you’ve dramatically changed the probability that you will be successful.

So these are some of the things, again, that are in all of the books. This book, again, I’m very proud of. I think it will be around 25 years. Swim with the Sharks is going on its 24th year, and I think this book, Use Your Head to Get Your Foot in the Door, will be around the next 25 years. I honestly believe that.

Jason Hartman: I think so, too. It’s obviously very timely. Well, Harvey Mackay, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate your insights. They’re awesome. This book is so timely and everybody out there should read it. One of the things we didn’t mention is that you start off in the book, actually in Chapter 2, talking about “Seven Danger Signals That You May Soon be Out of a Job.” So that’s sort of another whole part of it we didn’t get a chance to discuss, but if you want to make any comments on that, I think it’s very important to stay in the job.

Harvey Mackay: As soon as you start going to fewer meetings – you have to have your antenna up all the time – as soon as you start going to fewer meetings than you’ve done before, then look out. As soon as you might move your desk a little bit. It might be moved somewhere or all of a sudden, it’s not as prestigious as before. That can be a thing. The boss might start asking for more reports than ever before. You might not be invited to as many meetings as you were invited to before. You might be asked for more records than you’ve been asked for before. There’s a myriad of reasons.

You might see the boss taking someone out that you don’t recognize. All those danger signals are there, and here is a sad statistic. This Time Magazine, Gallup Poll, 70 percent of all Americans do not like their boss. And 30 percent are not happy with their jobs. So it’s just critical to know that the real number out there is 17 percent unemployment. When you add the people looking for work, Jason – looking for work – when you add the people that have stopped looking for work –

Jason Hartman: The discouraged workers.

Harvey Mackay: Discouraged, yeah. And you look for the people who have taken part time jobs rather than full time jobs. You got it? That goes close to 17 percent.

Jason Hartman: You know, Harvey, I would even add one more. The underemployed and the independent contractors, those two groups. I think the true unemployment rate is upwards of 20 percent, but of course, it depends how you count it. But I agree with you completely.

One of the great things about your philosophy is people need to think like an entrepreneur, even if they are employed. They need to think like an intra-preneur. How can I constantly add value? How can I bring more of a network and more value to my company? This is all just good stuff.

Harvey Mackay: No question about it. Absolutely. Whatever your job is, try to be a little bit more versatile. Try to do some other people’s jobs. Try to learn some other people’s jobs, everything. If on the computer, on a 1 – 10 scale, 10 is the best, you’re a 6 or 7, then go back to school. Get a teacher, get a coach, do it yourself – it doesn’t matter – and get some computer skills. Get some sales skills. Toastmasters, one of the best kept secrets in the world – they’re all over the world in 80 countries. Toastmasters International, join it tomorrow morning. I’ll give you your money back if you don’t think you got your value.

Dale Carnegie, take Dale Carnegie courses. Public speaking, how to get along with people. You can enhance your skills all of your life. There’s no reason for any person out there, if they really want to get that job, they will if they practice the right concepts.

Jason Hartman: Yeah, and you’ve always been so passionate about life-long learning. It’s a great thing to impart to people because nothing stays the same anymore. We’re in a fast changing world, so we have to embrace that.

Well, Harvey Mackay, thank you so much. The website is You have a free book up there and a lot of free resources. I took a look at the site myself and it’s just fantastic. And much continued success, Harvey. We appreciate having you on the show.

Harvey Mackay: Thank you, Jason. It’s Mackay. A lot of people misspell the name. That’s all., www, of course. And believe me, they will have a lot of tools. And hit that toolbar. It’s a dream. It’s the easiest toolbar in the United States on any site anywhere.

Jason Hartman: Good stuff. Harvey Mackay, thank you so much.

Harvey Mackay: Thank you. I loved it.

Announcer 2: Jason provides an extremely unique service, Deal Evaluator. Are you interested in a property outside of our network? Need a second opinion? No problem. Let our experts evaluate the deal. Find out more about it at

Announcer: Copyright The Hartman Media Company. For publication rights and interviews, please email This show offers very general information concerning real estate for investment purposes. Opinions of guests are their own. Jason Hartman is acting as president of Platinum Properties Investor Network exclusively. Nothing contained herein should be considered personalized personal, financial, investment, legal, or tax advice. Every investor’s strategy and goals are unique. You should consult with a licensed real estate broker or agent or other licensed investment, tax, and/or legal advisor before relying on any information contained herein. Information is not guaranteed. Please call (714) 820-4200 and visit for additional disclaimers, disclosures, and questions.

End of Audio

Duration:  55 minutes